Is equity killing excellence? The DEI debate – The Elephant
The Elephant is a new online video series that tackles the conversations New Zealanders often avoid. It dives into big, uncomfortable questions, looking beyond the echo chambers in search of a fearless and honest debate. This week, in the final episode of this series, hosts Miriama Kamo and Mark Crysell discuss whether diversity, equity and inclusion should be part of the hiring process.
The growing global backlash against diversity, equity and inclusion programmes is at the heart of this week’s episode of The Elephant, presented by Miriama Kamo and Mark Crysell.
Some political leaders here and overseas have framed diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) as “woke” or lowering standards, while a rising counter-movement – merit, excellence and intelligence (MEI) – is gaining momentum overseas, led by tech figures such as Elon Musk who argue that performance, not identity, should guide recruitment and promotion.
Social entrepreneur Alexia Hilbertidou, founder of GirlBoss NZ, told the show that young people “are really resonating with these ideas of excellence” – but that doesn’t mean abandoning fairness.
“I want you to be ambitious. I want you to aim high,” she said. “At the same time, we’ve also got to have those conversations around how do we make sure that everyone’s coming along on that journey and that there is equal opportunity for all.”
Recruitment leader Kara Smith, Talent International’s New Zealand country lead, said “most CEOs are very well intentioned and want their organisations to actually reflect the country”.
“They genuinely want to represent Aotearoa,” she said. “The friction is that frontline decision-makers are under pressure and choosing from a rather limited talent pool.”
Smith rejected claims that DEI hands unearned advantages to minority groups, noting that as a Māori woman, her own career had been helped not by quotas but by advocates.
“I have had some amazing people around me,” she said. “But if we really want to triple the representation of Māori and Pasifika, or have equal gender diversity in leadership, we need to think differently.”
From the US, Ayn Rand Institute chair Yaron Brook warned that while diversity has value, parts of the DEI movement have drifted from evidence.
“Some diversity is incredibly valuable,” he said. “But if it were truly the case that diversity equalled merit, we wouldn’t be having a debate. The problem is that DEI often overrides the idea of merit.”
Global Women CEO Katie Bhreatnach strongly disagreed, insisting the business case for diversity “remains clear and compelling”.
“Diverse leadership just results in better outcomes,” Bhreatnach said, pointing to extensive international research. DEI, she argued, complements merit by countering unexamined bias in hiring decisions: “Nobody wants to not hire for merit.”
Economist Dr Oliver Hartwich of the New Zealand Initiative argues that companies can’t be expected to fix every social imbalance, especially those affecting ethnic communities – it is “the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff”.
Hartwich says society has “a responsibility to expect exactly the same kind of performance from every ethnic community” and argues DEI can’t correct issues that arise outside the workplace. Education and culture, he adds, are where the real solutions lie.
Brook, likewise, warns that mandated diversity policies can backfire. “When you try to force diversity and set aside merit, it creates resentment,” he said.
Yet, according to Hilbertidou, the debate is not as polarised as it appears.
“DEI and MEI are not opposites,” she said. “We should be supporting every young person so they can go all the way.”
Watch, listen, and join the conversation – new episodes drop every Thursday across digital, social, and broadcast platforms. The Elephant is made with the support of NZ On Air.